Episode 26: Get ahead. No guilt.

September 23, 2013

"We had never experienced anything we thought to be remotely gender discrimination. So we couldn’t even identify it when we saw it. And this wasn’t blatant discrimination, this was kind of subtle, cultural things you couldn’t really put your finger on." - Jessica Bennett

“I don’t do guilt...it drains you of energy to do anything useful, or to move forward in your life." - Mrs. Moneypenny

Jessica Bennett in New York

Jessica Bennett has already had a career a lot of journalists would envy. She's written for plenty of national publications, worked at Newsweek for seven years, moved on to micro-blogging site Tumblr, and now heads editorial at Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In foundation. She never expected to come across any "gender issues" in her career - as far as she was concerned, that stuff had happened in the past. Everyone was equal now. But the reality of life at a national magazine turned out to be a bit more complicated.

In part two of the show I sit down again with Financial Times columnist Mrs. Moneypenny, otherwise known as Heather McGregor, to talk about quashing female guilt, learning how to say no, and building a reliable support network. 19 minutes. 

Show notes: The article Jessica Bennett and her colleagues published in Newsweek about the 1970 lawsuit, and their own experiences at the magazine, is Are We There Yet? And this is the show where I interview former Newsweek journalist Lynn Povich about her experiences fighting gender discrimination at the magazine in the early 1970s. 

Heather McGregor's book is Mrs. Moneypenny's Career Advice for Ambitious Women.

Also, don't forget the Squarespace sponsorship offer. While we're still in September use the code 'broad 9' to get a 20% discount if you sign up for a site. That's only in September, while supplies last.


Welcome to The Broad Experience, the show about women, the workplace and success. I’m Ashley Milne-Tyte.

This time on the show, two perspectives on getting ahead at work. The first comes from a Generation Y journalist who thought she was doing all the right things…only to realize subtle and complicated factors can get in the way of career progress.

Then I talk to a seasoned business owner and Financial Times columnist who has firm views on how to thrive at work – including learning how to say no and getting rid of guilt.

Coming up on The Broad Experience.

Jessica Bennett has already had a career a lot of young journalists would envy. She’s written for many publications over the years, and worked as a writer and editor for Newsweek for seven years before the magazine eventually folded. She then moved on to be executive editor at micro-blogging site Tumblr. Now she’s editorial director at Facebook COO and bestselling author Sheryl Sandberg’s LeanIn.org.

When we met, I told her I’d noticed her own Tumblr site bears the title ‘good girls finish last’. She had to go back a bit to explain how she came to that conclusion.

“I grew up in Seattle which is like this heaven of a place where everyone is equal, we have female governor, I went to public school, I never really thought about gender issues because the women outpaced the men every way imaginable…so went to college, moved to New York, got my first fulltime staff job job at Newsweek, just assumed I’d excel the way I always had… I was one of those typical over-achiever young women. I was at Newsweek for a few years and it just felt like I wasn’t getting credit that I wanted to be getting or getting published as much as I wanted to be published…I started as an intern and worked my way up and along the way I saw a lot of male interns get hired faster than I had. I was a temp for a full year and every 3 months I would have to up my temp time and my ID access card would stop working…and there was a point where for a week I was unemployed before they could bring me on as a temp, again…but while all that was happening men who were my age and equally skilled got hired on staff. So why did I feel I was still on a tryout?”

In addition to all this she says the arrival of a basketball hoop in the newsroom contributed to a bit of a frat boy atmosphere – again, nothing terrible was happening, no one was making sexist comments or openly denigrating anyone’s work, but she couldn’t help feeling things were just – off.

“So I started talking to some friends about this and it turned out everyone felt the same way. All the young women in the office had noticed this. None of it were sure what it was or what to call it, or how to identify it, we were all raised of the generation to think we were equal. We had never experienced anything we thought to be remotely gender discrimination. So we couldn’t even identify it when we saw it. And this wasn’t blatant discrimination, this was kind of subtle, cultural things you couldn’t really put your finger on, but we just had this feeling that something wasn’t quite right.”

Then, Jess and her colleagues made a discovery. They found out that 40 years earlier, a previous cohort of Newsweek women had sued the magazine for gender discrimination. If you’ve been a longtime listener to the show you’ll have heard about this in episode 8 – in that show I talked to journalist Lynn Povich, who was one of those Newsweek women, about how the case changed her and changed things for women in the media.

Inspired by finding out about that case, Jessica and two colleagues ended up writing an article for Newsweek called ‘Are We There Yet?’ in which they talked about that 1970 case but also raised some of the issues they’d been grappling with at work – how much had really changed in 40 years? The piece became quite a talking point in the media, and the women hoped it might drive change at the publication. But the kind of change that came wasn’t quite what they’d been hoping for. Because while all this was going on, the world of journalism was getting ever shakier…

“So ultimately the magazine was put up for sale. It was six months of hell – every day we’d go to work, didn’t know if we’d have jobs the next day. People had whisky under their desks, more so than usual. Ultimately It was announced Tina Brown was taking over, it was really exciting – she’s an icon in magazine journalism, she’s a woman, and so I stayed on, I stayed on for about a year.”

Even though more female bylines appeared under Brown’s leadership, Jessica says the bigger problem was that Newsweek was failing, like plenty of other magazines and newspapers. Newsweek stopped printing in 2012. Jessica moved on to work for Tumblr…but the world of experimental journalism is no more secure than that of traditional journalism. That job ended after a year. Now she’s working at Lean In.

I asked her what she’d learned in her rocky decade or so in the workplace and if she had any tips that might be helpful for other people. She says she’s gone from shy to direct in the course of her career. Still, she often calls up the image of a friend when she really wants to get something done…

“I have this friend Adam, who I shared a wall with at Newsweek for a number of years, he was always one of the most badass editors, and would ask for what he wanted, he could make a case for anything, convince anyone of anything…so sometimes ask myself what would Adam do, when I’m going into a meeting or want to ask for a raise. I literally think what he would do. Because he’s like the direct version of me, the more direct version of me. He of course doesn’t need to worry about being deemed too aggressive…you know, there’s a fine line for women when asking for things. But kind of taking myself out of myself sometimes and thinking what another person would do in my situation I think helps.”

Any other advice?

“I mean as far as journalism these days, I guess my biggest tip is you kind of have to create your own job…there’s just not jobs out there like there used to be…

AM-T: “And then work out how to get paid for it, in my case…”

I was at Newsweek for 7 years, that’s probably the longest I’ll be at any job. It’s like the opposite of my parents’ career trajectory, which is you start jumping around at different jobs and then you find the right one stay there for years. I got in at the end of this golden era of journalism, like the, I was on the sinking ship, I stayed there for 7 years, now it’s pretty much sunk and now you have to just jump around from thing to thing trying to figure out what the next innovation’s going to be, or how you can possibly use these skills and kind of mold them into something else.”

She says journalists shouldn’t be afraid to pitch a job, either. That’s actually what she did with her current job at Lean In. When she interviewed, there was no editorial position. She pitched the idea, they said yes, and gave her the job. Talking of skills, I asked her if she knew how to code, something everyone’s being encouraged to learn these days – she does, to a certain level, and she knows how to do quite a lot with video too…

“That’s from years at Newsweek and just jumping in on different things, and I think identifying early at a place where a lot of people didn’t ever identify this that that was going to be important, and that if I wanted to grow I needed to have well rounded skills. Because nobody just wants a writer any more. They want someone who can do everything.”

Jessica Bennett, currently doing if not everything then most things on the editorial side at Lean In.org. And I should say in the interests of full disclosure that since I interviewed Jessica during the summer Lean In has been posting some of the content from The Broad Experience.

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Next we hear from someone in the UK who’s at a later stage of her career – though she says she expects to work into her seventies. Some of you will remember Heather McGregor from previous shows. She masquerades as Mrs. Moneypenny in her weekly column in the Financial Times. She has her own business, she’s married, she has three sons, and she’s the author of a book called Mrs. Moneypenny’s Career Advice for Ambitious Women.

 Oh, and she has a distinct point of view on what holds women back at work. Take guilt.

 “Yes, I don’t do guilt. All these emotions take up a lot of energy. If you feel guilty about something it can just weigh over you like a cloud, eats at your self-confidence, you feel terrible all the time. That drains you of energy to do anything useful, or to move forward in your life. If you’ve done something you regret. If not possible to say sorry, just put it behind you and move on. Everybody makes mistakes.”

Now my guest on the last show, Jodi Detjen, has strong feelings about guilt too and I think she’s right to say that guilt comes when women think we’re breaking a rule. We feel guilty because we’ve internalized the assumption that we SHOULD be nice to everyone all the time, or we SHOULD be spending all our time with our children – so one of the ways to ditch guilt is to question those age-old assumptions that underlie your thinking about your role as a female. Heather McGregor says there are various types of guilt women tend to get hung up on. One of the most common is guilt at saying no to a request.

“You are asked to make the cake sale for something, or you’re asked to do something, to make a charity gala dinner, asked to give someone one-on-one careers advice. First, acknowledge that you can’t be everywhere. You will just be average at everything…no one will get proper attention. So I’ve just come from an email from a pretty famous TV presenter in this country, who’s a woman, asking for one-on-one advice having read my book…non-executive director position…she wants my personal advice. This is an hour of my time, I will not be able to charge for it. I can’t do anything to specifically assist her because I don’t run a search company that does board positions and I don’t influence chairmen. I encourage and support women but I don’t make any difference as to whether they succeed or not. All she will hear is what’s in book all over again. I’ve written back to her and said I won’t see her. But in writing back and saying I won’t see her, I’ve written three suggestions of things you can do to help herself, so when you say no to something, I can’t make the bake sale but here’s what I’ll do, I’ll donate $15 towards the cake ingredients. Try and say no in a positive fashion. It’ll make you feel a lot less guilty.”

But there have been occasions when she’s fallen into the guilt trap. She’d been writing her FT column, which often deals with being a fulltime working mother, for about a year, when she got a warning note from a reader…

“My oldest son at the time, he’s now 23, so he was only about 12 years old. The reader wrote in and said I used to be like you…I used to put my career first, but then my son had a nervous breakdown, and I realized it was all my fault…so she said you’ll end up like me with a son with a nervous breakdown. I rang my son, who was on school break, midterm break, I knew where he was, he was with my sister and they were going to the cinema. I rang my sister on her cell phone…and spoke to my son and I said to him where was he, he said in the cinema foyer, and I said I would come immediately to the cinema and join them for the show. And he said, why? And I said, I’ve had a reader write in and say if I don’t spend more time with you, you’ll have a nervous breakdown. And he said, ‘Mum, if you come to the cinema right now I will have a nervous breakdown.’ You know, it’s not what he’s used to, he’s not used to me coming to the cinema in the middle of the afternoon, he thought he was having a perfectly nice afternoon with his aunt. And that is what his expectations were managed to. So I think it’s all about what you manage your expectations to.”

Heather does a lot of expectation managing with her family. But she’s always open, she says, about the reason why she can’t do something or be somewhere, which helps keep everyone on the same page.

“So I believe in that full explanation. Actually, particularly the concept of opportunity cost. So every time you say yes to something you are saying no to something else. So saying yes to everything is only going to get you into hot water. You are going to end up not doing the things that matter if you’re not careful.”

AM-T: “And this is where people get so spent, because in general women do say yes to too much…”

"Yes. And then eventually what’ll happen in they will all just collapse in a heap and nobody is any better off. And then people say it’s very selfish to think of myself, I should be thinking of my children, I should be doing all these things for everybody all night long. And actually, no, you should be looking after yourself.  If that sounds selfish think of this: when we are all on airplanes and they go through the emergency drill, they say in the event of emergency oxygen will fall from the box above you. And why do they say that? They say in the first instance put on your own oxygen and then turn to help the person next to you, even if that’s your child, because if you are healthy and breathing and OK you are going to be in a much better place to help the minor person or the child next to you. So if your career is going well, if you are doing well, able to provide for your family, your family will be better off.”

Talking of family…she’s hardly the first female professional to have been criticized for not being at home enough…

“The truth is, parenting is an individual decision…some people want to stay at home and will stay at home, and that is their choice and I really respect it. I personally would struggle with that, but that’s a very personal decision. But I see far too many women who make that ultimate sacrifice and then 20 years later are in my office saying, ‘Oh my goodness, my children have left home, I have no qualifications and no relevant work experience…my husband may or not have left as well, and I’m now on my own and I have no way of earning a living.’ Well, you’ve had 20 years to plan for that, I’ve got no sympathy.”

To make it easier to work and parent at the same time she insists women need to ask for help and build up a group of people around them who are always willing to chip in in an emergency. I told her about one of my friends and listeners who lives in Westchester County, New York. She told me she’s started trying to create the kind of community she wants – offering to babysit someone’s kid if she knows the mother – and it usually is the mother – is very busy. She says she’s doing this because she wants that same network to be there for her when she needs it. She feels few women do this kind of thing anymore. We’re too busy trying to do everything on our own.

“Well she’s absolutely bang on the money, whoever you are in Westchester county, keep going, that’s exactly what you need to do. If you are not helping other people, you are not building a team.  You’re not building a sustainable community around you – you need to help other people. You may never need to call back in the favor, but that doesn’t matter. And the favor may not be the same thing, i.e. you may watch someone else’s children, but you may not have any children of your own, or your children may be older so you may never need anyone to watch your children. But you know what, at some point you may need to go away for three days unexpectedly and need someone to feed the cat.”

So she says always help out without necessarily expecting a return, but see it as building a network you can rely on when your job threatens to mess up your life.

That’s the Broad Experience for this time.

If you like what you hear on this show please consider writing a review on iTunes. This helps the show’s chances of getting discovered by new listeners. You can also kick in a few bucks to support what I’m doing by going to the support tab at The Broad Experience dot com.

The Broad Experience is supported by the Mule Radio Syndicate…which hosts lots of other podcasts including Evening Edition, It Might Get Personal, and Unprofessional.

I’m Ashley Milne-Tyte. Thanks for listening.

Episode 25: Killing the ideal woman

September 9, 2013

"What we see in the media is this idea that career and ambition aren’t something women should want." - Jodi Detjen, co-author, The Orange Line: A Woman's Guide to Integrating Career, Family, and Life

Jodi Detjen

On the first show of the fall season, we look at the extent to which women are still trying to live up to the stereotype of the ideal woman - and how that may be hurting our careers. You know her: she's does everything (at home and at work), she looks fabulous, and, of course, she's nice. My interviewee, management professor and author Jodi Detjen, says women's efforts to tick all the right female boxes are consuming most of our waking thoughts, to the detriment of our careers. She and her two co-authors discuss this - and how to stop succumbing to the usual pressures so we can achieve more in life and at work - in their book The Orange Line: A Woman's Guide to Integrating Career, Family and Life. You can read a bit more background on the book in my post, 'Ditching The Feminine Filter.'

"My hope is that women become free of all these rules of what it is to be a woman…that they can be what they are, and they can establish their life’s work," says Detjen. "Right now women’s voices can’t be heard, because we’re self-limiting. If we’re free to speak our mind and be who we are then the world has to change."

I'm inclined to agree. 15 minutes.


Welcome to The Broad Experience, the show about women, the workplace, and success. I’m Ashley Milne-Tyte.

This week on the show - perhaps one reason so few women are in positions of power is that we’re too busy trying to live up to a stereotype…

“What we realized was that women were making career limiting decisions consistently, based on this ideal woman. And the ideal woman does it all, she looks really good, and she is very nice.”

Coming up on The Broad Experience.

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Jodi Detjen thought her career as a consultant was still going pretty well after her first child was born. But then she had her second son. He had colic, and she was exhausted, overwhelmed and depressed. Then her husband started traveling a lot for his job. Suddenly she was doing everything house and child-related and working less. Still, she told herself being the perfect mother was more important. But she spent five years feeling miserable as home responsibilities took over, competitive parenting practices set in, and her career dwindled.

“I had kept putting it away sacrificing my career for my children, using that mantra, and it was painful, and it hurt me a lot. And it wasn’t until I really got out of there and realized what it was I was doing to myself, that I started to find the freedom and stared to work out what my career looked like and started to make it what it was today.”

What she realized she says is that for her career was vital – she couldn’t be happy without it. She’s now a professor of management at Suffolk University near Boston. She’s also the co-author of a book called The Orange Line – A Woman’s Guide to Integrating Career, Family and Life.

She and her co-authors Michelle Waters and Kelly Watson interviewed 118 women in the US and Canada while they were researching the book. All were professional and college-educated; most were married, and nearly all were white. As they talked to more and more women, the authors began to notice a pattern.

“When we were analyzing our data we kept hearing things that would come up like…oh, I can’t really ask for a raise or promotion because I’m not quite ready yet. Or, I have to get up at 2a.m even though I work a fulltime job to take care of the baby because my husband has a physical job. Or, I have to have the government job because my husband has his own business…or I have to own my own business because my husband has a big job. In essence what we kept hearing was all these reasons why these women had to sacrifice their career for somebody else.”

Jodi and her co-authors says self-sacrifice is part of what they call ‘the feminine filter’ – a set of beliefs women tend to have about themselves and what they should be and do.

“And The Feminine Filter, what we realized was women were making career-limiting decisions consistently based on this ideal woman. And the ideal woman does it all, she looks really good, and she is really nice. And so if you have to do all those things then clearly you don’t have time to do a lot of other stuff. If you have to take care of the kids, you have to take care of your employees, of your house, of the dog, you can’t have time to do a lot of other things like take care of yourself. We heard this again and again, and what our conclusion really was is this is why women aren’t in positions of power – because they’re trying to be the ideal woman and they’re not thinking about what it is that they really want.”

Now of course a lot of women want to stay at home with their children full-time and do – at least for a while. Not everyone puts great emphasis on their career or enjoys it. But of the women Jodi and her fellow authors interviewed, 75 percent described themselves not just as liking their career, but loving it. Yet many felt compromised.

I asked Jody to take me through the six assumptions that underlie the so-called Feminine Filter, which she says is responsible for a lot of female frustration, even if women don’t always realize it.

Number one:

“Women are primarily responsible for home and family and taking care of everyone. So when we believe that this is true, then we’re the ones that do the doctors’ appointments, that take care of making sure the kids have school clothes, that anything that goes wrong in the house we call the handyman, we do everything at home because we’re the ones responsible, the buck starts with us.”

The second assumption women make, according to Jodi, is that our commitment to something is measured by how much time we devote to it – be it children or work. In other words we really need to put in those hours.

“So this comes out in, I have to keep my head down and work, work, work, I can’t go out to lunch with the other people because there’s work to be done.”


“The third one is we have to be perfect in behavior and appearance at all times. So this basically means that we can’t make mistakes, we can’t take risks, we can’t take a promotion – one woman wanted to take a promotion but she was like, oh, I’m not quite ready, I don’t have all the skills yet, meanwhile the men are jumping ahead and saying, ‘I’m ready!’”

“The fourth one is we are never good enough.  So because we are constantly trying to be perfect, everything we do is sub-par.”

The fifth assumption she says many women have internalized is that tangible, material rewards aren’t supposed to matter – money and things, in other words. She says this is why so many women feel uncomfortable and even guilty asking for a raise.

“And then the last one is, if we follow the rules, good things will happen.  So if we keep our head down and we do everything our boss is asking, then of course we’ll get the promotion, of course we’ll be asked, of course we’ll get the raise. So what happens is we believe that these assumptions are true and then we act according to them and then we’re shocked when life doesn’t work out the way we want.”

That last one about following the rules really resonates with me. It took me years to realize that toeing the line wouldn’t get me where I wanted to be at work. I think a lot of women slave away at the office because hard work always got them results at school. But the workplace is a different beast. And all that unquestioning labor can easily lead to burnout.


“You have this great chapter in the book called Approaching Burnout…which I think a lot of listeners will relate to probably regardless of their sex. But um, maybe we can talk about some of those examples because you’ve enumerated in the book – you have these little tables where you set up a scenario and you then talk about the underlying assumptions beneath it and then you sort of discuss a solution, basically.

And, so let me read one of these: ‘I will manage, it’s only temporary, I just need to get through this short time. I can rest when I get through this crunch.’

Just talk about that example and what’s really going on there, if you would.”

“Well what’s going on there is because we assume we need to be perfect, we need to have everything look good, we can’t say no to anything, we can’t give it to anyone else to do, we cant make a mistake because then people will see oh my God, we really aren’t perfect and then our whole façade is gone…I’ll give you an example of where this happened, one of the women I was working with, she was a manager…she was working till 8 o’clock and she was getting burned out. Because everything needed to be perfect, and she couldn’t possibly delegate to her staff because they weren’t capable…

…but we examined this and realized oh, that’s not true, how do you develop people on your team? You do it by giving them work, coaching them, giving them feedback…also setting boundaries…

…her team started becoming more capable and she started leaving at 6 o’clock.”

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Jodi and her co-authors’ opinions don’t sit well with everyone. For one thing, the authors say just because many women’s jobs pay less then their spouses’, women should not automatically view their own job as less important.

AM-T: “And you in the book are really - you want to really encourage women not to look at their job as less important because it pays less, but you’ve had some pushback on this. Their response seems to be look, if his job pays 3 times more than mine of course it’s, his is more important. And if he lost his job it would be a catastrophe for our family and if I lost my job, it wouldn’t be. Talk about that for a minute because women seem very resistant to taking on your point of view on this.”

“I think what we’ve internalized is that we are less important and we’ve definitely internalized that our careers are less important….and so what we’re doing is conflating value with money and we’re saying clearly his job is more important because he makes more money. But this isn’t always true, because we’ve had many women that change. So for example, there was a woman whose husband got laid off and he was making more money. Well if they didn’t have her career they’d be really stuck. But her job – she was able to manage that family for a year till the husband got his career. Her career ambition enabled the family able to grow and learn. The other thing that happens is because we make this assumption, oh, he’s making more money than me, women naturally close down their career as things come up, so they make their careers even smaller.”

“But here’s the real problem. What ends up happening then is we perpetuate the myth that those who make it to the top are only those whose spouses are stay at home, or spouses whose careers are not important. And so anyone who wants to have an Orange Line life…where you have a career, family and life, they can’t make it to the top of organizations, because clearly they aren’t willing to sacrifice everything for that job. So we’re stuck, we’re stuck in this model that nobody likes, but we’re the ones perpetuating it because we’re the ones enabling our husbands and we’re dong it by saying that our dreams don’t matter as much as his.”

Which perhaps isn’t that surprising after centuries of being the second sex.  It takes a while for most people to get over that much social conditioning – providing they even want to. For some, it’s just the way things are.

“We we are told as women that we are supposed to be like this. And just…it’s the whole follow the rules thing, right? To be a good woman, you’ve got to take care of your house. So if we say no you don’t, women are like, well yes I do, my house is a reflection on me, it’s a reflection on my family! Well, why do you have to do it? Or we spoke with a woman a couple of weeks ago who, they both work, the husband is a school teacher, she says the husband is not good enough with helping the children with their homework, so I have to do it. When we pushed back, we realized the husband is a schoolteacher, she was like, uh, well… she didn’t know what to say. Because it’s hard, it’s really hard, to see this.”

And of course many women enjoy those kinds of activities. But if you’re frustrated by attempting to balance home life and career, Jodi says just think for a while about all the assumptions you make about your life and role on a daily basis…and question them.

After several unhappy years after her second child was born, Jodi and her husband agreed no one’s career is more important.

“Both our careers are considered equal. OK, so then alright, what does that mean? It means if I have to travel, we negotiate, if he has to travel, we negotiate, it means a lot of conversations about logistics. But it also means we both get to have careers we love and want and that our kids get to watch us enjoy our work, and this role modeling is powerful for me.”

And that idea of children actually seeing their mothers work at something they enjoy is something I’ll come back to in a show later this fall.

Thanks to Jodi Detjen, co-author of The Orange Line, for talking to me for this show.  If you have comments on this episode you can post them at The Broad Experience dot com or on the show’s Facebook page. Jodi and I will weigh in as well.

The Broad Experience is supported by the Mule Radio Syndicate…whose stable of podcasts is getting bigger.

I’m Ashley Milne-Tyte. Thanks for listening.

Episode 15: Do we have to fit in?

April 1, 2013

"If you don’t have the courage to step out of your comfort zone, you will not lead. So I don’t view that as a male or female thing." - Kathy Caprino

This has become a big point of contention for many women - the idea that to do well at work we have to fit in to company culture, instead of the company bending to accommodate itself to the way we do things. In the first part of the show I talk to career coach and Forbes writer Kathy Caprino (above). I interviewed Kathy for a print piece more than a year ago, and as soon as I started doing The Broad Experience I knew she'd be a great guest. She's been through it all - the corporate job from hell (that she couldn't quite leave), complete with workplace drama galore, the reinvention-that-didn't-work - and finally found her niche as a career and leadership coach for women. We talk about whether women are really 'fixing ourselves' if we do things the Sheryl Sandberg way, and the extent to which corporations need to alter their inner workings (a lot).

In part two I meet a representative from one of those big corporations, the multinational consumer goods company Unilever. The company has just been honored by Catalyst for its progress in getting more women into its leadership pipeline all over the world - and believe me, it's doing this in some very interesting ways. Can you imagine a company attracting women in the west by cozying up to their parents? Tune in to hear all about this, and more. 17 minutes.

Show notes: Kathy Caprino's book on women getting their careers and lives back is Breakdown, Breakthrough. For more on women and the workplace in India, this recently published piece in the Harvard Business Review has some good information.

You can read more about the details of Catalyst's award to Unilever here

Oxfam's 'Behind the Brands' report can be read here